Which Is Better?

For today’s episode, we will be discussing the difference between investing in a portfolio of single-family homes or multifamily buildings. 

We will be going over a hypothetical scenario of owning 100 single-family homes versus a 100 unit apartment building. 

 The audible version Passive Investing Made Simple: How to Create Wealth and Passive Income through Apartment Syndications coming soon! 

[00:01 – 05:34] Bad Investing Tip Of The Day: "Diversify as much as possible!"

[08:39 – 12:04] Why We Are Pro Multifamily?

[12:05 – 17:57] The Valuation Conversation, Having Control 

[17:58 – 27:28]  The Complexity Of Exiting 100 Units

[21:05 – 25:52] Go Big Or Go Big?

Book Recommendation

Green Light - by Matthew McConaughey

Audible Link

“Ultimately diversifying, you have a little tiny bit of money in every single thing that's out there. You're going to achieve the average of everything, which is not that great" – Dan Kreuger

"If you're listening to a podcast on real estate investing, you have probably more of an edge than you realize, even if you're a passive investor" – Anthony Vicino

"Let me just throw this out there. A hundred different tax returns, ugh" – Anthony Vicino

"It's way more efficient to take down a hundred units in an apartment building than it is to buy one hundred houses, even if it's one transaction" – Dan Krueger

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Transcript

Anthony Vicino: [00:00:15] Hello and welcome to multifamily investing made simple. Podcast, It's all about taking the complexity out of real estate investing so that you can take action today. I'm your host, Anthony Vecino of Invictus Capital, joined by the man. The Myth Dan. I had tacos. Dorados for lunch.

Dan Krueger: [00:00:34] Kruger, I did. I did not know what those words and I had them, and

Anthony Vicino: [00:00:37] They're pretty good. What exactly is it Dorado?

Dan Krueger: [00:00:40] I still don't know. Yeah, I looked at it, and I

Anthony Vicino: [00:00:42] Was like, That was good. It looks kind of like a startup. Yeah, with sour cream and some salsa. And you never get

[00:00:49] Mexican, I'm like Italian. I had a big chimichanga.

Dan Krueger: [00:00:56] You didn't look disappointed.

Anthony Vicino: [00:00:57] It was not large, but I was wearing a white shirt and that is a saucy, sassy meal. A brave soul. I was to dive into that meal.

Dan Krueger: [00:01:06] I usually was risk-averse, but today you were just wrong.

Anthony Vicino: [00:01:09] I feel like any time I wear a white shirt, I mean, they're eating like Thai food or Mexican like sauces are flying. I can't. I can't be trusted in white. I need to always. Stick to

Dan Krueger: [00:01:20] Water. Yeah.

Anthony Vicino: [00:01:21] All right. So let's now that we've got the culinary portion of the podcast episode out of the way, let's get to the meat and potatoes of this.

Dan Krueger: [00:01:31] Yeah. Well, we all heard it.

Anthony Vicino: [00:01:36] I'm I'm not a dad, but I do enjoy myself. A good dad joke.

Dan Krueger: [00:01:40] Yeah, yeah, we are accumulating them. So if you guys have dad jokes, send them in. Mini dad, I have like no jokes, so I got one now. You know, meat and potatoes. Oh, and that was more of a pun. It wasn't really a joke.

Anthony Vicino: [00:01:53] I thought it was funny, though. All right. So, Dan, we actually have a really interesting topic that I want to discuss today that came up in a coaching call that I had with the client the other day. And I think it's going to serve as a really good launching off point for the rest of this episode, which is what's the difference between buying a portfolio of one hundred single-family homes versus just buying a one hundred unit apartment building? But before we get to that, we got to dive into the desert before we get to the meal, because that's how I do things, because I am a child. So, Dan, what is my bad investing advice this week already?

Dan Krueger: [00:02:30] Diversification is how you reduce risk, right? If you want to reduce risk, you need to diversify. And that's my bad investing tip for the week is to diversify as much as possible. Right? Because I mean, if you are reducing risk by diversify and you should just. Diversify as much as possible and then all the risk goes away. It sounds pretty good, right?

Anthony Vicino: [00:02:51] Well, this is an interesting one I think about actually quite frequently, because on the one hand, diversification is a key component of a sound investment portfolio for a lot of people. But if you have domain expertise that gives you a particular advantage, well, it may be like we do in real estate because that's what we do. Maybe you should stay in your lane and leverage that, but I'm curious where you're going with this because this is your bad advice. So what do you mean by diversification is bad?

Dan Krueger: [00:03:22] Yeah, yeah. Well, I was going to take a little bit different direction with it and basically say that yes, it's important to not have all your eggs in one basket. However, if you take that concept of diversification all the way to where you're ultimately diversifying, you have a little tiny bit of money in every single thing that's out there. You're going to achieve the average of everything, which is not that great, right? You want to outperform, you want alpha, you want something more than the general market return. In order to do that, you've got to make some strategic decisions to outperform and get alpha. So, you know, diversify so that you're not completely putting all your bets on one thing, but then still have a few key areas that you invest in. So for us, that's real estate a little bit inequities, maybe a little bit of crypto. We kind of dabble in a few different things. It's primarily one thing with us. We're trying to diversify and diversify a little bit more. But we still kind of pick a few things that we have expertise in. So there's still an edge, right? But we're not just saying, Oh yeah, just throw it all in mutual funds and call it a day.

Anthony Vicino: [00:04:21] Yeah. And that is if you take it to its logical extreme, the issue with diversification is a perfect case in point. If you invest in everything across the broad spectrum of all potentiality, then you're going to average out to the exact middle, which isn't going to get you ahead, necessarily. If that middle is above, like still a good place and still growing, then cool. If it's not, then that's problematic. But I think for most, for the general investor, diversification is a good idea in the sense that you might not have any unique domain experience or expertise that you can leverage. But if you're listening to a podcast on real estate investing, you have probably more of an edge than you realize, even if you're a passive investor. You probably know more from listening to this podcast or reading that book up there. Passive investing is made simple. You probably know more about real estate investing than you do about investing in the stock market, in the companies that you're investing in there, or maybe even crypto. So leverage that and play to your strengths. I'm a big proponent. Like if you want to build a big, successful business or life, you need to leverage your skills and surround yourself with the people who know your weaknesses. But I think it's a good strategy, even in investing is play to your strengths.

Dan Krueger: [00:05:32] Hundred percent.

Anthony Vicino: [00:05:34] And so, all right, so we're done diversify. Now let's get into yeah, let's get into focus mode. Let's talk about this was an interesting question because the person that asked, is not a beginner. You know, it's not their first rodeo with multifamily. They asked the question, Hey, there's this one hundred unit, single-family portfolio, or a portfolio of one hundred single-family units. Why wouldn't I consider buying that instead of a one hundred-unit apartment building? And he's like, What's the difference? And you know, he's new in some ways to real estate, but he has like 30 units spread across smaller like duplexes and tries and things like that. And by his own, his own admission. He hasn't really dived in deeply enough to the underwriting, and he just kind of bought those because that was the thing that seemed like it made sense he didn't really underwrite it. And so far that served him well. But now that he's trying to escalate his education and he's asking these questions like, what's the difference? Why shouldn't I just go buy a hundred single-family homes versus this multifamily it? It illuminated to me that this is still no matter how often we talk about it, still something that a lot of people don't. Understand or know fully the difference in why we're such not protagonists, but what's the word I'm looking for? So pro multifamily, so let's. I thought we could just break this down from a high level when I first say, Dan, why would I buy a hundred unit apartment complex when I could buy a portfolio of one hundred single-family homes? Like, isn't it pretty much the same? What, what comes to mind?

Dan Krueger: [00:07:08] Yeah, I mean, there's a flutter of like price seven to 10 different things that come to mind immediately. I mean, it all comes rushing back. No, but I mean, this is something that we've talked about a lot and we've, you know, had experience on the smaller side personally and on the larger side. So we've got this really, you know, we've got this great perspective of already having done both things as I've never done the single-family home stuff, but I've done smaller properties and larger ones. So Anthony has done the same. So we've seen both sides and we've kind of come to the conclusion that there's a ton of different reasons why a larger complex would be better than the same number of doors spread across multiple properties, right? So single-family homes. So this hundred versus one hundred examples, I think, is a good one because the first thing that comes to mind the most immediate thing is just the logistical lift that one hundred homes would be. And, you know, even if it's coming in a portfolio of one hundred units, where or maybe this would be, you know, one transaction typically in this question it, you know, you're talking to somebody who's trying to scale to one hundred units over time.

Dan Krueger: [00:08:12] And so those each of those houses would be one transaction, one loan, one closing process. You know that you'd have to go through that closing process a hundred times to buy one hundred homes if you did them one by one versus one hundred buildings. And in this case, I think he was talking about buying one hundred houses all at once. So you wouldn't really have that, but you still have one hundred different properties to maintain. And so from a management perspective and just the logistics of handling that, you know, if there's an issue at a large apartment building, there's one physical location where everybody goes and you know, you don't have one hundred different furnaces, you don't have one hundred different roofs, right? And there's all the stuff that just gets multiplied on the smaller scale where each structure, even though it's one house versus an apartment unit, you know, it's kind of its own little animal, right? You lose a lot of efficiencies.

Anthony Vicino: [00:08:58] Let me just throw this out there. A hundred different tax returns, though.

Dan Krueger: [00:09:03] Yeah, I don't think you'd have to do that. And I'll say if you bought them in one fell swoop, I think

Anthony Vicino: [00:09:07] Maybe I don't know. I don't know. I I CPA, I got you. I bet you would have to because the state wouldn't necessarily care that you bought them in a portfolio. They just know that the individual parcel. I don't know, but I would. I would assume, like when we're talking, I think it

Dan Krueger: [00:09:21] Would just be a tax return for whatever entity owns it. Not each property. I mean, you pay property tax a hundred times. Oh yeah. A hundred payments. A hundred payments. Yeah, we're not. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anthony Vicino: [00:09:31] Yeah. So we're on the same page here. But the thing with the hundred is let's just think about this from the very beginning of the process. Let's say you have a portfolio of one hundred and I was on a panel last week where a guy this summer bought five hundred single-family homes. And the first thing that came to my mind was, Holy crap, how did you do due diligence on five hundred single-family homes? Think about the spreadsheet that you have to have and then the team that you have to be able to just the transportation cost of sending your architect and engineer on your property manager between all five hundred

Dan Krueger: [00:10:05] Units that take it would

Anthony Vicino: [00:10:07] Take it would take forever.

Dan Krueger: [00:10:08] Yeah, I mean, yeah. So like to answer your question. The immediate thing that springs to mind is just generally the efficiency of taking that down. It's way more efficient to take down a hundred units in an apartment building than it is to buy one hundred houses, even if it's one transaction, just because of all those little nuances between each property. And then there's a multitude of other reasons as well.

Anthony Vicino: [00:10:30] Yeah, and I don't want to leave this one quite yet because there's a couple of other aspects that may be listeners haven't necessarily considered, which is if I have a portfolio of one hundred single-family homes, I have one hundred roofs, 100 boilers, 100 foundations, 100 electrical systems, one hundred plumbing stacks. Whereas when I have a single complex and granted one hundred unit complex, unless it's a high rise of some sort, it's usually maybe three or four buildings, right? But the amount of roofs and mechanicals and things that could go wrong is drastically reduced. And so what that means is that your maintenance and repair and your CAPEX expenses are going to be proportionally far higher on the portfolio of single families than it would be on the single multifamily asset. And that can really eat away at profits at the end of the day.

Dan Krueger: [00:11:19] Yeah. And now I'm just kind of I just keep thinking about this more and more and more. It's like, think about all the utilities fresh the electric, the water, the gas, the sewer,

Anthony Vicino: [00:11:28] Like, those are all separate bills

Dan Krueger: [00:11:29] Or separate bills. And there's five or six, primarily four or five for each property. And they all are probably on different schedules. There are different garbage companies. It's you'd need a team of people to just manage pain. All the bills on a monthly basis and keeping up with it, I feel like it is just so messy.

Anthony Vicino: [00:11:48] So like honestly, guys, I don't get too stressed out when I think about scaling and building systems. But the idea of building a system for one hundred or five hundred single-family homes really stresses me out.

Dan Krueger: [00:12:01] Zillow's got it. Figured it out. I don't know what the heck they're doing. I think they're just flipping. Honestly.

Anthony Vicino: [00:12:05] Well, here's the other aspect that I do want to talk about here, which is the valuation conversation, which is an important one. The way that single-family homes are valued is fundamentally different than multifamily assets, which we've talked about ad nauseum. If this is the first time that you're listening to this podcast. Here's the quick breakdown. Single-family homes and buildings that are on a residential loan, so maybe four units and under they are going to be valued based on comparables, which means whatever the homes that are similar to them in a certain geographic region, what have those sold for recently that's going to dictate the price of your building? So if the neighbor Jeremy across the street sells for a huge profit, awesome, then your property is going to be worth more. It doesn't matter how well he ran the property or how well you run your property, it's going to be based. It's going to be valued about what everybody else's properties in that area is worth now. Multifamily is fundamentally different because it's based on the cash flow that's produced like as a business. How profitable is this little entity? And so we have a lot of control over driving up the expenses. I'm driving up the revenue to drive up the expenses and decrease the expenses, and that makes our properties more profitable.

Anthony Vicino: [00:13:13] In turn, this gives us control over the valuations. Now something to think about here. If I go and buy a portfolio of one hundred single-family homes and let's say they're all on like this three-block area, that's a great scene in the sense that it's going to be easy for due diligence and maybe even management, because now they're all in grouped into one area. You own that area, but now you also control the comparables. And that's what Zillow is really doing is they're going in and buying up a bunch of properties. They then sell them back and they can drive up the comps because they own everything in that area. That only works until it doesn't. And then somebody left holding a bag, and maybe you do that for the twenty-five of your properties because it's going to be hard to sell a whole portfolio of a hundred of these. Maybe you're selling them piecemeal and maybe you sell twenty-five of them, and then suddenly the market goes the other direction. You can no longer get the same price that you're getting for the earlier ones. And so the whole exit strategy is just so much more. Again, logistically overwhelming.

Dan Krueger: [00:14:11] Yeah, yeah. I mean, the valuation piece is really what drew me into multifamily when I got to that point of learning about this asset class in this business, that's where I instantly got hooked because that was the thing that really turned me off about real estate when I was younger and I hadn't been to school and I was just hearing about, you know, this kind of stuff in the news, it sounded like something that you didn't have control over, kind of like the stock market and like everything else out there. And I was like, Well, that's it sounds kind of risky. And then I got to the valuation piece of my studies and I was like, That is a hell of a lot less risky in that model. So that's really where it turned for me it was I was instantly hooked. And then the more I learned about the stuff, the more and more it just made sense.

Anthony Vicino: [00:14:53] Here's something else to think about again. I just keep going back to the logistics. My mind goes to systems building and all the issues that you would run to. If you have one-hundredth single-family homes, you have to set up one hundred single-family home listings when you want to rent them out and you have to keep track of one hundred different addresses. So when I say to you, Hey, the boiler went out at forty-two point thirty-seven 30 Eighth Street, you're like, Wait, which one is that again? That's all. I couldn't do it. I couldn't. I couldn't keep that track. Yeah.

Dan Krueger: [00:15:20] Oh, it's just madness. It's just, I mean, I guess it works for some people, right? If you like the single-family home stuff and you scaled up slowly and build these systems along the way, like, yeah, a hundred units by the time you get there typically will be, you know, you've got a system when you get there. Just the thought of that all at one time is really where it's it's kind of like, jeez, that seems aggressive. But, you know, people make it work. People build the systems, they make it work. It might not be the most efficient thing, but some people like it, so

Anthony Vicino: [00:15:51] More power to them. Yeah, at the end of the day, there is no right or wrong. There are just different strokes for different folks. For me, I like multifamily because it's simple in real estate. At its core, it's pretty simple, but you can make it very complex, and buying one hundred single-family homes or five hundred, that seems very, very complex to me and I just could be due to ignorance on my part. But even if you had fantastic systems in place and you could run this thing as efficiently as you could a hundred unit apartment complex, you're still not going to solve the issue of financing and the valuation. The financing is going to be just a lot easier overall on the multifamily and the valuation is it can't be understated or overstated how important that is because it gives us ultimate control at the end of the day for how valuable our. Property properties are going to be yeah,

Dan Krueger: [00:16:44] Yeah, and I think what just on this specific example of this individual's question if you were buying 100 units in a portfolio fashion like that and one transaction, you would be using commercial debt, you wouldn't be getting the types of mortgages that a consumer would get right with the best terms, you're going to get commercial debt like we would get an apartment building. So that piece, if you actually do this kind of transaction in one fell swoop, you're going to be getting the commercial debt on it, even though it's residential.

Anthony Vicino: [00:17:13] But even in that scenario, then when you go to exit it, that really makes it so that you have to exit it as one big package. So if you want to split it up and you refinance, if you go.

Dan Krueger: [00:17:24] I think if you want to parse something off, I think you can modify it depending on the lender, it's really up to the bank. I think I've had that conversation with a couple of lenders actually one of our properties where we've got a couple of buildings in one portfolio. If we wanted to one-off one, we could. Most people opt not to because most of the time in apartment space when you get larger buildings, they're grouped together as a portfolio for a reason because they're together. And typically, if someone wants one or two, they probably want the other one or two as well. So in our space, it's not a big issue. Usually, we kind of think about that stuff going in, but it's doable. I think if you want to make it happen,

Anthony Vicino: [00:17:58] You can make it happen. I think at the end of the day, though, it's one of complexity, and thinking about if you wanted to, you're going to take out a commercial loan on a whole portfolio for single-family homes. Sure. But then unless you're planning on an exit at all at once and you want to carve it up, that's going to create more administrative rigmarole. And again, I mention this because not just because complexity leads to potential points of failure and vulnerabilities, but also it just takes up more time, makes it takes up more cost. And so then the overall profitability of one hundred single-family homes versus one hundred unit multifamily complex, it's going to look very, very, very different. And all these little costs and add them up over time, and it's going to be a massive difference by the end.

Dan Krueger: [00:18:42] Yeah. And that's really what it comes down to when you're looking at these two options, it's your kind of end up in the same place, but one of those avenues is just extremely a lot more efficient, right, and more profitable because of those costs that you just mentioned, right? The multifamily approach to getting one hundred doors, it's going to be a lot quicker, a lot easier, a lot simpler. And you're probably going to make more money because you don't have all those transactional costs and those little friction points in the business, but you kind of get to the same place. You've got 100 100 doors, 100 renters, 100 streams of income. It's just you could do it in one transaction and one property and keep it, keep it easy. So that's our approach. We like it. Easy with it. Simple. We're lazy.

Anthony Vicino: [00:19:23] Pretty much. We don't want to work harder than it's necessary almost. Yeah. Now, OK, so that is, you know, in a nutshell, and I think we touched on a lot of concepts here that are core to multifamily investing, which is the scale, the efficiencies, the valuation models. These are very important concepts. But even starting to think about like maintenance and CAPEX and like, what does that look like? That's one of the big reasons why I actually really like the bigger buildings because per head per tenant head, those materials go so much further and that just, I don't know, it warms my heart to know that things are being used to their fullest capacity.

Dan Krueger: [00:20:03] Yeah, yeah. And like with the renovations to most apartment buildings, if it's one complex, you know, they're going to have some pretty consistent unit layouts. Some stuff has been modified over the years, but generally speaking, about 100 unit apartment building. You might have somewhere between five and 10 different floor plans, whereas if you get a hundred different houses, you are almost guaranteed a hundred different floor plans. And what works on one for the finishes might not work on the other. And so it's really hard to systematize the improvements if it's like a value-add type thing.

Anthony Vicino: [00:20:34] It's just now I will say here's something I just thought of is one hundred single-family homes. Those are all three bedrooms. That's three hundred units. Boom, now you can. You can rent it by the door. Yeah. Student housing in there, that's going to be the way that might be way more profitable than a hundred unit multifamily asset.

Dan Krueger: [00:20:54] Yeah. If you want three hundred college kids to deal with that, just to be even crazier, just

Anthony Vicino: [00:20:58] To be clear, that is six hundred fists through

Dan Krueger: [00:21:01] Drywall. Yeah, it's a lot of kegs. That's a lot of walk parties.

Anthony Vicino: [00:21:05] That's a lot of everything. I don't know about all that anyway. So that is the big difference between one hundred single-family homes and one single one hundred units multifamily asset now. All this is to say, if you're listening to this, I don't. I can't. I don't want 100 units cool like you don't have to. You can go get 20. Take them, go get 10. Yeah, but just like I just want to put this out there that we're using hundred is just kind of like a placeholder number. That's not to say that that's where the scales of efficiency really come in.

Dan Krueger: [00:21:35] No, we're not doing the Grant Cardone thing.

Anthony Vicino: [00:21:36] No, we're not saying go big, go big, go big. So figure out what you want. What works for, you might be. Ten units might be 15, but get over that four-unit threshold, that's my recommendation. Get into the get into a commercial asset. So Dan, before we walk, before we jumped, before we saunter before we meander, I was going to mosey,

Dan Krueger: [00:21:55] You're going to mosey. Yeah, can I mosey out?

Anthony Vicino: [00:21:57] I'm going to cancan out of here. That's going to be it's going to be epic. Before we do that, though, what's our book recommendation?

Dan Krueger: [00:22:04] I got a good one. Almost missed my mike. So excited to get this book recommendation. Actually, this one is assigning a real estate book. It's just kind of fun. It's kind of an entertaining read, and it's either you're going to like it or you're going to not like it. It's kind of a binary thing. Greenlights by Matthew McConaughey.

Anthony Vicino: [00:22:23] All right. All right.

Dan Krueger: [00:22:24] All right. It's actually a good book. It's actually a good book. It's just a book of stories from his life, and he kind of breaks down his philosophies and like how he formed them. It's it's cool. So if you like Matthew McConaughey, you might like the book. If you don't like math and guy, you will not like the book, but it's entertaining.

Anthony Vicino: [00:22:40] It's a good catch. I heard out of that is that everybody's going to like this book because if you don't like Matthew McConaughey, what's wrong with you? Oh man, I know I've said this many, many times before, but that man's a national treasure. Actually, that's the first time I've ever said it. Yeah, you're in it first here, folks.

Dan Krueger: [00:22:57] Well, he's a cool guy. I haven't. After reading his book and hearing him think and like how he thinks about things I haven't

Anthony Vicino: [00:23:03] Read, I haven't read this. But I know when this book launched, he did a big podcast push and he was on just every podcast under the Sun. And the feedback that I kept hearing from people was, This is actually really good. I know it's always really fun for people like this is actually really good like they were expecting it to suck. But well,

Dan Krueger: [00:23:20] He's one of those guys that I think he's always been like a deep thinker, except he was typecast as like the romantic comedy guy. And so people just kind of assume that he's that type of person, but he's actually pretty intelligent and he just, you know, did the Hollywood thing. He played his role, he got his money, and now he's kind of at a point where he doesn't really want to do that anymore. He's actually doing good stuff now, you know, not like Jennifer Lopez movies. Sorry, J.Lo, but your movies aren't that great. Their concerts are amazing. I went to one,

Anthony Vicino: [00:23:46] Oh, I don't know if I can stand behind any of this. You're you're you're you're railing.

Dan Krueger: [00:23:52] I mean, subscribe right there. She's like, unsubscribed.

Anthony Vicino: [00:23:57] And Jennifer, if you're listening to this, I apologize on behalf of Dan. He didn't mean it. He might have. He's a dick. I'm just kidding.

Dan Krueger: [00:24:05] Hey, Selina was pretty good. I'll give her that one, which one do you know

Anthony Vicino: [00:24:08] Which one's the one with the G Gigli Gigli?

Dan Krueger: [00:24:12] Geez, that was probably the worst of the worst. I never saw it, but that was like rock bottom. Four movies on her prior. I think

Anthony Vicino: [00:24:19] Your career like it's good to hit rock bottom because from there you can only go

Dan Krueger: [00:24:22] Up. You know what? She and Ben Affleck are back together. Oh, Liz has been shoving that in my face.

Anthony Vicino: [00:24:27] Like. Thank God, I've been losing sleep for decades on this one.

Dan Krueger: [00:24:32] See dust off your copy of Gigli. Whatever it is.

Anthony Vicino: [00:24:36] Jiggly, jiggly, jiggling. That's. I'm going to call Gigli. Gigli. So anyway, that's going to do it for us, guys. We are obviously out of great content for you now. We are just scraping the bottom. We're at the bottom of that barrel, but it's good to hit rock bottom because we can only go from there, which means next week we're going to bring something hopefully better. Now there's no guarantee, but what I can say is if you would take a moment out of your life to go and leave a review on Apple iTunes and tell us what you think about the podcast in general, that would go a very long way towards motivating us to bring the A-game next week. So if you want more of what you got. Don't do anything. If you want better. Go leave a review. In either case, we really appreciate you taking some time to listen to us and we'll see you next week.